Episode 1 -
Ukraine Unveiled: Navigating Through
Centuries of Resilience and Cultural Identity

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:13:19

Sam Cook

So welcome to another episode of the Ukraine History Podcast, and I'm here with Suzanne Kelly. And Suzanne, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about you and what you specialize in.

00:00:14:01 - 00:00:41:07

Suzanne Kelly

Thank you, Sam. I am the CEO and publisher of the Cipher Brief. It is a national security focused media organization. I was the intelligence correspondent for CNN for a number of years and a career journalist before that with not only CNN, but other outlets around the world. Really just decided that national security was so important of an issue for all of us to clearly understand that the experts and the sources of who you listen to on these topics really mattered.

00:00:41:19 - 00:01:12:15

Suzanne Kelly

We live in an age of not only 24, seven television, but where most of us are getting our news and information from our phones and our devices. It really mattered to me that the people who we were talking to about what these issues mean were true experts and they don't have to agree with each other. It's better sometimes that they don't, actually, because you get a diversity of a range of views on these issues that are impacting our current national security and our future security, like in the cases of Ukraine, is a great example.

00:01:13:13 - 00:01:29:21

Suzanne Kelly

But that's basically what I've been doing for the last eight years and have a fantastic team that we work with to bring news. Open source reports, podcasts, opinions and events that are all focused on national and global security.

00:01:30:00 - 00:01:52:23

Sam Cook

Yeah. And yet you're one of these new generation of media companies that sprung up in the, I guess, in the podcasting era where I don't think there's any any even big news organization out there that has the reputation for being able to go inside the intelligence community like you people move stepping out of a probably a well-paying media job to start your own venture.

00:01:52:23 - 00:01:54:04

Sam Cook

How has that journey been?

00:01:54:12 - 00:02:16:11

Suzanne Kelly

One of many crazy moves I've made in my life. I'd say a pattern of doing things that were somewhat unexpected and out of the ordinary. But yeah, I think doing this, you know, I've had former acting directors and deputy director of the CIA say before that they've never in their lives would have imagined that so many spies would kind of come out of the cold and talk to media.

00:02:16:11 - 00:02:39:18

Suzanne Kelly

And a lot of them, the first stop is the cipher brief, simply because it's also something of a trusted entity. And by trusted, I don't mean that you take a side by trusted. It means that, you know, there is for a long time a fear that if a public person goes out and does an interview with the media, that the media is going to take just that one salacious comment they want and throw the rest away and build a story around.

00:02:39:18 - 00:02:59:21

Suzanne Kelly

And that's unfortunately what media a lot of media has evolved into these days. And I just thought it was a real crime to leave out the context here. So we just became a trusted entity. You know, we we give people a say. We give them the time they need to make their full case. We question them. We make sure that, you know, things make sense.

00:03:00:20 - 00:03:20:10

Suzanne Kelly

We ask probing questions. We do all of those things. But I think being trusted in media in this day and age is huge. And I think just from the perspective of the interviewee, knowing that what you say is not going to be chopped up and dissected and then put out through somebody else's lens later is a really big deal.

00:03:20:15 - 00:03:43:00

Sam Cook

Yeah, well, just a little bit of context. We we did our interview for episode one with General David Petraeus, and I think you're the next episode after that in this podcast. So, so and I'm giving you that that spot position of honor following the great late CIA did not not the late but the great CIA director retired now General Petraeus.

00:03:43:00 - 00:04:07:00

Sam Cook

Yes. Because you helped me and my foundation, you know, work with him. He's he's come in our golf tournament in January, which we talk about on this podcast, is to raise money for a foundation. Yeah. How did you get to know General Petraeus so well? And he's even on your board. Tell me about it. So you have so many great relationships that the conference you have coming up, you have the yeah.

00:04:07:04 - 00:04:08:05

Sam Cook

The director coming.

00:04:08:10 - 00:04:27:16

Suzanne Kelly

I think we're very fortunate. We've got the current director of the CIA speaking at the conference say we hold in October every year. We have been extremely fortunate to have relationships with a number of former directors of the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency. We work with folks from the Department of Defense, Department of Homeland Security, the White House.

00:04:27:16 - 00:04:43:05

Suzanne Kelly

I think, again, it just all goes back to trust. I think, you know, when I created as Sam, I you know, when you're a reporter, you work with sources every day and you have to develop their trust, almost like an intelligence officer. It's funny how many times I've heard these are parallel careers. You just report to different people.

00:04:43:14 - 00:04:46:00

Suzanne Kelly

Some things you keep secrets, other things you want everyone to know.

00:04:46:00 - 00:04:48:00

Sam Cook

A journalist will go to jail rather than disclosures.

00:04:48:00 - 00:05:06:03

Suzanne Kelly

That's right. That happens a lot. But, you know, it's really important to me to go out to people first and just kind of float this idea. And I went to former CIA Director George Tenet and went to Stan McChrystal. I went to David Petraeus. I went to the person he used to work for, General Jack Keane. I went to General Michael Hayden.

00:05:06:03 - 00:05:22:09

Suzanne Kelly

And I just said, hey, I feel like there's a need for getting better information. Getting information that does provide all the context and bringing a diversity of thought. So let's go talk to an intelligence officer about what this means. Let's talk to someone from the military about what this means. Let's talk to a policymaker about what this means.

00:05:22:09 - 00:05:53:12

Suzanne Kelly

And let's try to see if we can make a big picture here that everyone can understand the impact of these events. So I just went out and started talking to people and developing that trust, and I was very fortunate. I think almost every single person I've invited to come and be a cipher brief expert has said, Yes, we have, you know, just a great track record of trying to bring different perspectives to light that I feel like our success is only an indicator that there's a need out there for this.

00:05:54:23 - 00:06:19:07

Suzanne Kelly

So Ukraine's minister of Strategic Industries was outside the door. That's because during this visit, you know, to keep some it was really important to us to talk to as many people from Ukraine, people on the street from Ukraine, but also at the government level to get a sense of what is needed here and how to make those connections that are really going to help, you know, shore up support for this war.

00:06:19:08 - 00:06:36:19

Suzanne Kelly

And one of the things the cipher brief did, I mentioned off the top that we do events. And one of the things that we did after reporting here in February is we came back at the end of May and we had about three or four weeks, I think, to organize a conference where we brought 50 U.S. business professionals to Kiev to.

00:06:36:22 - 00:06:41:04

Sam Cook

During one of the most intense period of rocket attack, the most intense rocket attacks during the war.

00:06:41:04 - 00:07:11:10

Suzanne Kelly

It was actually very surprised that so many people came. And I'm glad they did, though, because and every single one of them said they were glad they did because, number one, even though the rocket attacks are horrific in Kiev, they're intimidation tactics. A lot of the rockets are being exploded before. Yeah. So I mean, it's such an amazing defense of this city from missile attacks and everyone here made connections that they feel like bring their expertize and Ukrainian expertize together.

00:07:11:18 - 00:07:26:10

Suzanne Kelly

Yeah. And so one of the guests that we had had was the Minister of Strategic Industries, and we wanted to talk to him about how he's thinking about using Ukraine as a testing field, particularly for the things that they need most urgently on the battlefield right now on military equipment.

00:07:26:15 - 00:07:38:00

Sam Cook

Yeah. And we're actually on your set in your hotel room. We are famous Intercontinental Hotel. Well, these days I'm going to I'm going to probably try and later in my life make a movie about this hotel and all the things I've seen here.

00:07:38:07 - 00:07:39:20

Suzanne Kelly

Can you imagine? It's the walls, the talk.

00:07:39:24 - 00:07:56:13

Sam Cook

Yeah. Like Hotel Budapest is going to be like one of those movies just focused on a property. And look what's what's amazing about what you were able to pull together. That's when I met you. You pulled off this amazing conference. I couldn't believe you got all those people to. To Ukraine. They all got on the train, even when the missiles were flying and.

00:07:56:18 - 00:08:11:14

Suzanne Kelly

Waving me right. I mean, it speaks to the appetite. Yeah. Of the American entrepreneurs and the people who have these great ideas and great experience and great success. It speaks to how badly they want to put that into action for good.

00:08:11:21 - 00:08:12:03

Sam Cook

Yeah.

00:08:12:09 - 00:08:12:21

Suzanne Kelly

And not so.

00:08:12:21 - 00:08:13:20

Sam Cook

Much out of businessmen.

00:08:13:20 - 00:08:17:10

Suzanne Kelly

And it's absolutely right. Yeah, it was it was really fascinating. Couple of days.

00:08:17:10 - 00:08:20:19

Sam Cook

This is the wild, wild east. There it is. It's like the American West.

00:08:20:21 - 00:08:21:09

Suzanne Kelly

That's right.

00:08:21:09 - 00:08:23:22

Sam Cook

That's drawn all these adventurous Americans out to the east.

00:08:24:05 - 00:08:46:16

Suzanne Kelly

It's crazy. I mean, how often have you heard ministers from countries say, sure, use our land as a testing ground for your new systems, your new weapons, your new. And not only that, but let's bring the Ukrainian sort of ingenuity to the table and let's let's make them better. Let's see what we can add or layer on top to to make these products even better.

00:08:46:16 - 00:09:05:03

Suzanne Kelly

And we've always known that Ukraine has been an absolute hotbed for innovation and talent. We thought it was always just in the IT and tech sectors and, you know, they're so smart in those areas, but it actually turns out they're smart in a whole bunch of areas that, you know, we're now seeing put in practice, which I think is really cool.

00:09:05:09 - 00:09:20:20

Sam Cook

Yeah. And that's what I love about your business, is that you don't just give out information, but you provide really valuable services bringing companies over here that want to do business. But you help them figure out the security and intelligence situation. So it's we.

00:09:20:22 - 00:09:32:00

Suzanne Kelly

Really just all we really do is bring people together around a common focus, which is national and global security. That's all we do. But I want to I want to take more credit than we deserve, but we just happen to know a lot of really cool people.

00:09:32:07 - 00:09:34:00

Sam Cook

You know, that's that's our business model.

00:09:34:07 - 00:09:34:19

Suzanne Kelly

That's right.

00:09:34:20 - 00:10:01:10

Sam Cook

That's what we do. So let's go back to the intelligence. And I want to segway into I have the privilege of interviewing you a someone who's watched intelligence and reported on the intelligence community. National security for a long time, knows all the top people in that world. And there's this old saying that there's policy successes and intelligence failures and everything always gets blamed on the intelligence community.

00:10:01:10 - 00:10:26:09

Sam Cook

And take us back to 2022. We just pulled out of Afghanis, Stan, and the whole national security establishment, you know, you're covering it. Horrible situation, like really low point, I think, in American foreign policy since Vietnam. And then you start to see the intelligence coming out about Ukraine. You know, we were out of Afghanistan in August. There's all kinds of handwringing.

00:10:27:16 - 00:10:35:04

Sam Cook

What what are your recollections from that time period? And when did this story about Ukraine start to pop up on your radar? And what were you thinking at that?

00:10:35:09 - 00:10:52:22

Suzanne Kelly

You know, we're always monitoring because we put out this fantastic open source report where we just kind of tap into all the open source reporting around the world about what's happening. And we were seeing consistent early this buildup of Russian troops along the border. And, you know, all these analysts had hats on and they would say, well, we're seeing this, but we're not seeing that.

00:10:52:22 - 00:11:12:14

Suzanne Kelly

And that's a missing ingredient. Before we can definitely determine an invasion. And and we just I mean, repeatedly for weeks and weeks and weeks, and the numbers weren't getting smaller. They were getting bigger. And then we saw the Biden administration, I think, do something that was brilliant and that should be done more often, which was declassify intelligence and then share it with the world.

00:11:13:15 - 00:11:35:22

Suzanne Kelly

I think that was the first time that I can remember the government using intelligence in that way, declassifying and sharing to try to show the world what they were seeing. It's always been, you know, the intelligence community has always been full of secrets because they have to protect sources and methods. And if they lose that opportunity, then the intelligence, you know, can be penetrated and is useless.

00:11:36:06 - 00:12:02:08

Suzanne Kelly

So it's important that they do what they do in the way they do it. But by declassifying and sharing this, I think it was one of the first times I've ever seen through the eyes of the government in the intelligence community what they were seeing. Well, it proved really effective. It got a lot of attention. And I think it's something that, you know, we're looking forward to welcoming the principal deputy director of national intelligence down to our own conference that we hold every year on national security in Georgia, in the United States.

00:12:02:08 - 00:12:20:20

Suzanne Kelly

Georgia not the one over here. And we're looking forward to talking to her and welcoming her to talk a little bit more about how the DNI sees and the audience sees the declassification of intelligence in the Biden administration, because ultimately it's a policy decision. The president has to decide, you know, the president decides what's classified and what's not.

00:12:20:21 - 00:12:21:02

Sam Cook

Yeah.

00:12:21:23 - 00:12:26:11

Suzanne Kelly

But using that to kind of show the world what Russia was doing along the border, I think was really important.

00:12:26:22 - 00:12:49:19

Sam Cook

I mean, it was I was here living in Ukraine. I had 65 people in two different companies are working for me. I literally it was both scary to see it alarming, but also I think it saved a lot of lives. We took appropriate measures. A lot of Ukrainians, although they didn't want to believe it in the back of their minds, they were getting ready.

00:12:50:14 - 00:13:21:00

Sam Cook

But it but it ultimately had this effect that I think it it stole all of the oxygen from Russian misinformation to the point where it was almost like a bit of a theater of the absurd, watching them try to create a justification and a pretext for the war. When did you think and I know you have all your old newsletters, what did it become clear to you that the U.S. intelligence community really believed that this was what was happening?

00:13:21:00 - 00:13:23:24

Sam Cook

And what did you start when did you start getting really concerned about it?

00:13:23:24 - 00:13:57:05

Suzanne Kelly

I think when it is classified and shared that intelligence, it was really clear they were showing images like along the border when we were starting to see the equipment that was being moved in and we were starting to hear from people who knew better than we do as, you know, receivers of news, what that meant, what that had meant historically when one country is invading another, like why it was significant when we started to answer all of those questions for the American public and, frankly, for the world by not only showing them the evidence and then telling them what our assessment was of what it meant, I think there was a level of trust there

00:13:57:15 - 00:14:15:22

Suzanne Kelly

where traditionally you haven't had a lot of trust in, you know, CIA. Some people go running and they're like, oh, no, they keep secrets. And it will they keep secrets for good reasons. But I think them sharing, like in the DNI as office, of course, but them sharing that information was huge and explaining what it meant and why they thought that.

00:14:15:22 - 00:14:33:12

Suzanne Kelly

Because you can tell me today, Sam, you know, the sky is purple and I'll say, well, of you know that purple. But I'm going to ask you, why do you think the sky's purple? And maybe you'll have a way of explaining to me why, from your perspective, you believe that I feel we need more of that kind of dialog to build more trust, but I think that's the greatest decision they ever made.

00:14:33:12 - 00:14:49:08

Suzanne Kelly

And it really was a clear sign to me that they're willing to try new things to convince people that Russia disinformation is in fact disinformation, and they were willing to show people why they believed that was so. And I thought it was a real turning point. It was unprecedented as far as I know.

00:14:49:19 - 00:15:14:17

Sam Cook

What was the mood like in the intelligence community among professionals? It's it's really you couldn't have been happy that they were right. And I you know, I remember telling my own members of my company, we're going to evacuate. I hope I'm wrong. I fear that unfortunately, this is going to happen because I believe the intelligence and in a way, I was personally horrified that they were right.

00:15:14:17 - 00:15:38:19

Sam Cook

But I was also really proud. I mean, I don't know if I've ever said this in my life, and it sounds kind of strange. I was really proud of my intelligence, my government, and the way they handled that well. What was the mood like in the intelligence community over, I think, this really historic impact they had on potentially saving a country?

00:15:38:19 - 00:15:56:12

Suzanne Kelly

You know, I can't really speak to the mood of the entire intelligence community, but but I can tell you, the people who I know who work in the intelligence community, who I did talk to, I think also were incredibly proud. You know, there is a lot of still hand-wringing over things in the past that maybe weren't identified in time, really big things.

00:15:56:23 - 00:16:25:23

Suzanne Kelly

I think that, you know, it would be horrible to be an intelligence officer some days because you worked so hard. You you know, you pull together information. And it's just that one time that you missed something or you don't connect dots on something that you're known for because you can't talk about your successes. And so when when the public only knows you for the things you got wrong and they have no idea that mountain of things in the background that you got right, they tend not to maybe see you in the way they should.

00:16:25:23 - 00:16:38:07

Suzanne Kelly

They don't have the context. Right. So I've said that word like 25,000 times, but they don't have the context. And so I think when that happened, there were a lot of people who I talked to who were very glad to see it happen and would like to see it happen more.

00:16:39:04 - 00:17:03:09

Sam Cook

So the war started. The intelligence community I think played a critical role in it because Ukrainians were in denial. President Olinsky I mean, the Ukrainian army rolled out of their barracks the day before and they displaced the Air Force, thankfully, a couple, two or three days before. I remember watching the intelligence and and I was really concerned when I saw that blood was being shipped to the front lines, these very specific things indicating why they believed it was happening.

00:17:03:23 - 00:17:21:18

Sam Cook

But that was it. I think part of the reason Ukraine was able to withstand they knew that just a small airfield, if that would have been seized, they were going to lose their capital. They knew that was Russia's plan because we warned them about that. They fought back and made sure that didn't happen. It was a key turning point of the war.

00:17:22:14 - 00:17:37:04

Sam Cook

So the war starts. How does that change your business, your focus, your reporting? And then tell us a little bit about your adventures. You've come in Ukraine and met, I think, some amazing characters on the pages of the history books.

00:17:37:04 - 00:17:51:18

Suzanne Kelly

Here we have. We are very fortunate to work with incredibly talented and experienced people in our role at the Cipher Brief and we've been in a few times now. We came the first time in February. Fantastic. From February.

00:17:51:18 - 00:17:52:11

Sam Cook

2023.

00:17:52:15 - 00:18:11:01

Suzanne Kelly

February 2023 this year. Yeah, right on the cusp of the one year anniversary of the invasion. There was already talk then about Ukraine's counter offensive, what it was going to look like when it was going to be launched. We didn't see it launched until later and beginning of June. But a lot of just focus on, wow, one year is a milestone, right?

00:18:11:13 - 00:18:16:07

Suzanne Kelly

So what do we accomplish in one year and what are we going to be able to accomplish in the next year?

00:18:16:19 - 00:18:38:22

Sam Cook

So before you came back, well, you know, that year before you between the start of the full scale invasion, because Ukraine has been at war since 2014. And then the anniversary when you first came. Yeah. What was that year like? How did that change your business in terms of the focus of your podcasts? Yeah. Did you start to focus on Ukraine and become interested in it to the point that you took that trip?

00:18:38:24 - 00:19:02:07

Suzanne Kelly

So because we're a media organization that focuses on national and global security, we were already interested in what it meant. I think. I think once we saw the invasion happened now it was like, you know, media funny. Like they follow the shiny objects, right? And sometimes they miss the really, really big things in the background. But I think once that started, it became clear to everybody who was thinking about what this war meant, that it was a massive strategic move.

00:19:02:07 - 00:19:30:06

Suzanne Kelly

We started seeing alliances formed that were very concerning. We're still seeing that it is China refuse to condemn Russia for launching the invasion. Their partnership is very complicated and very concerning to the West. We started to see Iran delivering drones and drone systems and taking part and now we're seeing North Korea. So you started to see over that year the shaping of new alliances.

00:19:30:12 - 00:19:54:07

Suzanne Kelly

You saw on the positive side, the United States and NATO's, which had for years under the Trump administration, not enjoyed a great relationship. All of a sudden, there's nothing to bring your focus about. Sharper than war. Yeah. And having a common enemy and I think that that that's exactly what happened. So our interest obviously grew. We were very interested in understanding the strategic importance of this war.

00:19:55:02 - 00:20:12:06

Suzanne Kelly

I am always interested in understanding how partnerships impact the outcome of wars. I don't think that any of us does anything alone, whether it's running a media organization or fighting a war. And I think the the people you keep around you are critical to your success.

00:20:12:06 - 00:20:34:20

Sam Cook

What about the intelligence sharing between the United States and its allies with Ukraine? I mean, you saw all kinds of unprecedented things. I think Ukrainians would be the first ones to tell you if it was not for American intelligence that is being shared really at unprecedented levels, especially outside of NATO's even. Yes, the Ukraine would have made it through to the war.

00:20:34:20 - 00:21:06:00

Suzanne Kelly

I think it's you know, I've had the great fortune. Me and my colleagues have met with the head of military intelligence here, who is somewhat legendary but don't have twice now. Yeah. And we've met with the head of intelligence here twice now and in every you know, there's we're will in one case an interview in other cases, private meetings to kind of understand what's happening in every case they have described the intelligence relationship they have with the United States and with NATO's with the West as excellent.

00:21:06:15 - 00:21:16:20

Suzanne Kelly

They feel like they told me they feel like they're getting what they need. They have the support they need on the intelligence side. So I think I think that's been a very positive alliance there.

00:21:17:06 - 00:21:27:10

Sam Cook

What about the role of commercial intelligence for fighters? What have you seen in that? How has that industry grown as a result of the Ukraine war and what role is that played?

00:21:27:15 - 00:21:33:11

Suzanne Kelly

Are these fascinating? I think a lot of the you know, the future of intelligence really lies in the private sector. If you ask my personal opinion.

00:21:33:18 - 00:21:34:10

Sam Cook

It wasn't.

00:21:34:18 - 00:21:53:16

Suzanne Kelly

Absolutely. I think there are companies out there that are doing amazing work in the tools are using to gather intelligence. They're hiring brilliant analysts to tell us what it means. And I think what we saw, Samuel, remember in those very early days is a lot of U.S. companies that do private intelligence coming in and offering their services for free.

00:21:54:11 - 00:22:11:23

Suzanne Kelly

A lot of those companies are sponsors of our conference. But there are others. I mean, there were many, many companies know in offering I know quite a few of them. And I think them coming in and saying, you know, we want to give you what we have because it's, you know, we're not going to charge you anything for this because we share the same values we want to be on the side of.

00:22:11:23 - 00:22:34:00

Suzanne Kelly

Right. It was extraordinary. And I also think that that's shaping the future of how all countries will go to war in the future. It's never going to be a country against country war again. It's always going to have a much, much stronger partnership with the private sector. And the private sector goes all the way back to like, you know, Revolutionary War or me before.

00:22:34:00 - 00:22:34:21

Sam Cook

That has been there, but it's.

00:22:34:21 - 00:22:42:20

Suzanne Kelly

Always been there. But the strength and the ability that the private sector companies now have, the capabilities they have, I think are the game changer.

00:22:42:21 - 00:22:59:16

Sam Cook

Yeah. I mean, look at StarLink in terms of data has been absolute game changer, pretty controversial in some respects with the power that Elon Musk has over the direction of the war, with some of his fears and insecurities around his personal safety and his relationship with with Russia. And it's been.

00:22:59:16 - 00:23:01:19

Suzanne Kelly

An interesting, interesting story.

00:23:01:21 - 00:23:21:20

Sam Cook

Yeah. And a lot more details coming out in the book from Walter Isaacson about that. Yeah. So let's move on to your impressions from your trips to Ukraine. You've met some really colorful characters. Biden off is is absolutely one of those figures that only history could produce. I always say that history is way better than fiction.

00:23:22:02 - 00:23:22:15

Suzanne Kelly

Oh yeah.

00:23:23:14 - 00:23:29:19

Sam Cook

This guy is is pretty amazing. I mean, to tell me your impressions of your meetings with him.

00:23:29:21 - 00:23:51:24

Suzanne Kelly

You know, I wrote a story when we first met him in February and not for a shameless plug, but if you're interested in reading it, just Google the cipher briefing and you don of be used to A.V. But I think, you know, that story captured really well kind of our impressions of him because it described not only how serious and focused he is.

00:23:51:24 - 00:24:09:09

Suzanne Kelly

I mean, he has one mission and that is to kill Russians. And he is okay to say it that way. He doesn't care about, you know, how that plays in the fray, does not care. He's proud of it. He has a mission. He's extremely focused. He's just a really just colorful character. I mean, we met the first time in his office, which is now his home.

00:24:09:09 - 00:24:26:19

Suzanne Kelly

Yeah. Which, you know, we walked in and there's this dimly lit outer office with someone sitting at a reception desk, and Shrek is playing the movie Shrek is playing in the dark. And I felt like I was walking into a James Bond movie and two frogs. There are two frogs kept in an aquarium. There's a bird in the corner.

00:24:26:19 - 00:24:46:05

Suzanne Kelly

And I meet his wife and his wife lives there. I said, Where do you live? He's like, Here. I said, Where does your wife live? You said, Here. I said, Let's love a lot of this. Definitely love nobody. He really is just he seems almost bigger than life. But I have to tell you truthfully, there are a number of people that I have met in Ukraine that seem bigger than life.

00:24:46:05 - 00:25:06:07

Suzanne Kelly

I mean, it's just and I think the core thing about what is it that makes him strange, it's not the frogs in the aquarium in the corner, and it's not the bird or whatever it is, the collection of bullets and the things that he keeps in his office. But it's that core sense of, I know who I am, I know what my mission is, and it is is completely tied to the future of Ukraine.

00:25:06:22 - 00:25:20:09

Suzanne Kelly

So it's completely tied to this sense of nationalism and pride and wanting to protect your country. And it's it's very difficult, Sam, to come here and to not walk away feeling how strong that is.

00:25:20:14 - 00:25:34:18

Sam Cook

Yeah. And, you know, he he's I've heard stories that they had to pull him off a plane, helicopters. He was, he was trying to get on the mission to sneak in, which he ordered. Yes. He was coming back from missions briefing on in a teleconference and.

00:25:35:03 - 00:25:47:22

Suzanne Kelly

Yeah, I met him a couple of days ago and and I'll be honest, that was the second time that we had met. He looked like he maybe possibly hadn't slept in a couple of days. And, you know, I have a feeling that's par for the course for him.

00:25:47:22 - 00:25:58:11

Sam Cook

Yeah, absolutely. Legendary figure. And then another character's the head of cybersecurity at SBU. Ilia talk about your interactions with him and it.

00:25:58:14 - 00:26:09:04

Suzanne Kelly

Is amazing to me to the guy's like a former what is it, boxing champion or I can't remember with it. He'll, he'd be upset and disappointed in me for forgetting. Yeah, yeah.

00:26:09:04 - 00:26:09:21

Sam Cook

He knows how to fight.

00:26:10:05 - 00:26:37:18

Suzanne Kelly

He knows how to fight. But he knows how to fight not only person to person, but in cyber. Yeah. I mean, the first time we sat down with him at the SBU office in Kiev, he was just so knowledgeable about every single thing that Russians had tried to do. And not just in this war, but since Crimea, since 2014, they've been keeping, you know, a log of like the advancements, like who these groups are, the tools they're trying to deploy, how they're trying to get around what Ukraine's trying to do.

00:26:37:18 - 00:27:06:22

Suzanne Kelly

And he's always thinking one step ahead of the enemy. And I think they had a lot of success very early on because they were always thinking one step ahead and he's another one who just in really, really not only appreciates but understands the value of the private sector and what they're able to bring to this fight. And he is one who has partnered with a lot of private sector companies as well, and taken all of the goodwill and all of the capabilities to put them, you know, to use in this war.

00:27:07:00 - 00:27:07:05

Suzanne Kelly

Yeah.

00:27:07:06 - 00:27:15:10

Sam Cook

And, you know, for those listening in America, the spooks is probably kind of like our FBI, but they're probably a lot more powerful. It's. It's an inherited.

00:27:15:10 - 00:27:16:21

Suzanne Kelly

Kind of FBI. CIA.

00:27:17:08 - 00:27:46:20

Sam Cook

Yeah, but you knew counterintelligence inside the country. Yeah. Focus on finding saboteurs. People inside Russian agents inside Ukraine. Ukrainians who've defected towards Russia in occupied territories and inside Ukraine controlled territories and it's a really powerful organization, has a KGB legacy. They used to be heavily infiltrated by the Russians and they've been cleaning that up. But Ilia and actually use on your podcast and I would highly recommend yeah.

00:27:46:21 - 00:27:47:09

Suzanne Kelly

It's good.

00:27:47:09 - 00:28:07:06

Sam Cook

To listen to that episode at Cipher Brief and I was just really impressed you brought in your conference and I was struck by how well-spoken he was and how how articulate he was. And really even the United States and the top Western intelligence agency, if they aren't already, they will be taking lessons from Ukraine and integrating it back hundred percent.

00:28:07:06 - 00:28:24:04

Suzanne Kelly

Yes, there's so much to learn here. And that's been the message. And a lot of the people, you know, I have talked to here is this is not this is not giving Ukraine charity. Yeah, right. If you understand what it means to invest in the success and the future of a country they have so much to give back.

00:28:24:14 - 00:28:49:17

Suzanne Kelly

And I feel like that's the message that the American people sometimes aren't receiving in the normal kind of media stories you hear about the war, what happened on the front, what's happening with a government who's Wolinski welcome today. But you're not hearing about how the innovation and the passion and quite frankly, just the intellect of Ukrainian Ukrainian people are improving on all of these things and that's it that's giving back to the world.

00:28:49:17 - 00:28:54:24

Suzanne Kelly

So I see this more as an investment than I do as, you know, charitable giving to support a war.

00:28:55:09 - 00:29:17:04

Sam Cook

And then so command a real Sir Matt. And that was funny. That was your first meeting. Yes. In Kiev. And General Petraeus was there and. That's right. There's a huge missile strike going on. And yes, General Petraeus says I'm okay and know. General Franco said I'm okay if you're okay. And I said, yeah, this is fine. Yeah, no one left the American delegation.

00:29:17:04 - 00:29:30:21

Suzanne Kelly

Right. But you've got a four star general with General Petraeus, so we're not going to expect him to flinch anyway. But yeah, a whole team. I think there was maybe one person in the room when the air raid sirens went off and said and said, are we going to do this or are we going to stay? And we all stayed.

00:29:30:21 - 00:29:47:01

Suzanne Kelly

And I think General Petraeus just said, well, just one thing, you might want to close the curtain. And I think they didn't. They didn't I don't think they did either. And it continued on. But you know what? That's a very small picture of how Ukrainians are living every single day. Right. So it feels like it's a big idea because it's a U.S. delegation.

00:29:47:01 - 00:30:02:05

Suzanne Kelly

But this is how the people here have to live every single day, you know, and those air sirens, when we were here in May, we're going off, you know, 12 times a day. It seemed like, yeah, the businesses stop. You know, you've got to close your business. You've got to take you know, you're supposed to go to the bunkers like they now.

00:30:02:05 - 00:30:18:12

Suzanne Kelly

Ukrainians don't even bother to do that because they know how successful, you know, they are. But this is how they're living every day. And I think that was what I took away from that experience. It wasn't it wasn't as much the Americans being tough as it was. Well, this is what you guys have to go through. I can't imagine that happening in New York.

00:30:18:16 - 00:30:30:00

Sam Cook

Yeah, you know. No, it was it was it was crazy. And look, General Franco, he used to work with the Danoff and Gore, and we got a picture of him with with the delegation. He's like, Yeah, giant.

00:30:30:03 - 00:30:33:19

Suzanne Kelly

He is. Yeah. Another larger than life character, straight.

00:30:33:19 - 00:30:35:21

Sam Cook

Out of central casting for special operations.

00:30:35:21 - 00:30:38:11

Suzanne Kelly

Just I feel like this whole war is straight out of central casting.

00:30:38:14 - 00:31:01:23

Sam Cook

These characters are, you know, it's interesting. I always say that I look back on World War One and it's very hard to find any memorable personalities. But World War Two, you have these amazingly vivid characters in the same thing in Ukraine, like Zelensky. Madonna, yeah. Heroine goes you losing all these guys true legends in the history books already and that's what this podcast focuses on.

00:31:01:23 - 00:31:25:13

Sam Cook

Well, yeah. So that it's been amazing to hear your personal insights on the Intelligence Committee. I think we all have a lot to be proud of in America and Great Britain. And, you know, those two, especially other ones in the West, a little bit different in terms of leading up to the war. But I think it just goes to show the power of intelligence.

00:31:26:01 - 00:31:45:09

Sam Cook

We usually never hear about our successes in here. We do. I think it's going to change the paradigm of how we handle intelligence in the future. I think you're right far for the good, more transparency, more proactive, using intelligence as information operations, weapons and war, and that was fascinating to hear your insights on these legendary characters for this book.

00:31:45:18 - 00:32:03:02

Suzanne Kelly

Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you so much and thanks for what you're doing. Sam, it's been a pleasure to get to know you this year and to have the opportunity to work with you in a number of ways. I just very much appreciate how dedicated you are to connecting people as well, because I think that's what makes all the difference not only in this war, but overall.

00:32:03:12 - 00:32:07:21

Sam Cook

Also, you have your conference, which you do annually. The next one coming up in When is it?

00:32:08:13 - 00:32:13:22

Suzanne Kelly

We have one that we do in the United States in October. We'll be doing another one in Kiev in the spring. Yeah.

00:32:13:23 - 00:32:22:00

Sam Cook

And that would be for anyone listening to this who wants to do business in Ukraine. That's a I mean, you organize a great conference last time in no time, and now you're going outlined a plan.

00:32:22:05 - 00:32:23:21

Suzanne Kelly

Yes. We'll be doing one that will be like.

00:32:24:05 - 00:32:33:06

Sam Cook

We'll be helping you here on the ground. So that's going to be great. So if you're listening to this, you'd like to reach out to how do they find you to reach out about that and just hear your.

00:32:33:12 - 00:32:48:12

Suzanne Kelly

So the cipher brief scheme is a great way. We have different emails there for different ways that people would like to reach out and connect. And that's where you can find that open source report that we do twice a day as well. You can see a lot of the insights from people like General Petraeus and a lot of the people we meet here.

00:32:48:12 - 00:33:04:18

Suzanne Kelly

We then write about and publish what that was like. So that's all the cipher briefcase. And we're very grateful. We're a media organization that is focused on trying to do good by bringing as many different perspectives to the table that are deeply experienced perspective. So we always appreciate every new reader.

00:33:05:01 - 00:33:34:15

Sam Cook

All right. So, Suzanne, thank you for being the second and I feel so honored guest of honor on our podcast for helping us launch this this whole effort. We are forever in your debt for you for the help you provided to Borderlands Foundation. That's why we're trying to get you out right after General Petraeus and the next long list of guests we're going to have on here and look forward to supporting you and cipher brief in your work here in Ukraine and, you know, helping you guys do your work here.

00:33:34:18 - 00:33:37:17

Suzanne Kelly

Thank you so much, Sam. It's an honor to work with you. Thanks.

00:33:37:17 - 00:33:38:06

Sam Cook

Thanks. Is that.